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Dear Dr. NerdLove
I have been very happily married for eleven years while also happily having an affair, without my husband’s knowledge, for ten years. The truth is it doesn’t take a web of elaborate lies to hide something if your partner doesn’t push to know the hidden life you don’t want to reveal. That has given me the freedom to enjoy holidays with my lover as well as my husband. Both of the men in my life are successful, handsome and love me, as I love them. And the sex is great with both of them.
Of course, the women whom I consider my friends hate me for this and also think I am squandering the lives of both men I am happily entangled with. The truth is they both make me feel special and happy and I carry that into both of my relationships. If my husband found out tomorrow that I have had a lover for this past decade, I think he would forgive me as my lover would forgive the occasional fling I have without his knowledge. I’m happy but am I destined to always live under the negative judgment of other women?
Yours sincerely
The Other Woman
Do I need to do my standard “here’s my position on potentially fake letters” note again? So soon? Well, as I’ve said before: if there’s something that others can learn from a question that may or may not be in good faith – or circumstances just so out there that it seems implausible – then I’m not fussed about whether someone thinks they’re getting one over on me.
So with that in mind: there’s a lot to unpack here, but maybe it’s better to just throw the entire suitcase away.
Taken at face value, this is a classic case of “Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this/ well stop doing that”. Your friends aren’t happy with your actions because, quite frankly, you’re being a cheating piece of shit. Stop being a cheating piece of shit and your friends will stop judging you for being one.
Yes, I know, this seems like an odd thing coming from Captain Monogamy-Is-Not-Our-Default-State. But this is why people emphasize the concept ethical non-monogamy; you’re currently in an unethical non-monogamous relationship and at least one of your partners isn’t aware that they’re in one.
Now having taken your letter at face value at the top, let’s dig in a little here because, to be perfectly blunt, I think you’re lying to someone here. Er… besides your husband, anyway. Either you’re lying to me, or you’re lying to yourself, but neither is a good look for you.
Let’s start with an obvious fact: your friends are right. The way things currently stand, what you’re doing is not goddamn cool. Based entirely on what you’ve written, your husband (and possibly your side piece) did not consent to being in a non-mongamous relationship. If you entered into a monogamous commitment with your husband and haven’t actually renegotiated terms, then you’re cheating. Full stop. End of story. Your being dishonest with your husband also hinders the potential of your relationship with the other guy. Ten years is a hell of a long time to be a side-piece, and that implies one of two things: either he doesn’t know you’re married, or he doesn’t care. Neither of those are great; the only question is whether this looks worse for you or for him.
Now, since he’s not the one who wrote in, we can only speculate on his stance on this. Maybe he’s hoping – like many have before – that you’re eventually going to divorce your husband so that he and you can be open about you relationship. Maybe he wants a monogamous relationship with you but is functionally poly-under-duress because this is the only way he can be with you. If that’s the case – and I freely admit I’m spinning out possibilities, not making definitive calls – then you’re functionally keeping him from the relationship he actually wants. If you can’t commit to just one person, as many folks can’t, and that’s what he wants in the end, then this is profoundly unfair to him and it only causes more pain in the long run.
And this is made worse by the fact that apparently you’re cheating on your side-piece as well. Once again, you’re keeping secrets from him, and if he didn’t go in for a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell arrangement with you – and we currently have no reason to believe he did – then again: you’re keeping him from the kind of relationship he actually wants.
Then there’s the conditional language you’re using. You think your husband or your side-piece would forgive you if they knew? Are you suuuuuuuuure?
So… why haven’t you told them, then? If you’re so sure that your hubby would be ok with this, then the obvious answer to all your problems would be to have an open, polyamorous relationship with both of them. With no need to lie or sneak around and your partners all having opted-in, this magically transforms your disapproving friends from a Greek Chorus calling out your sins to folks who can’t respect a non-conventional relationship amongst consenting adults. You no longer have to worry about who knows, nor are you functionally demanding that they be your co-conspirators in keeping your “flings” secret from your husband or other partner.
But then again, it’s one thing to say to a partner that you’re not monogamous or that you want to explore opening up the marriage. It’s another to tell him that he’s in an open marriage and has been for ten years, you’ve just… casually neglected to tell him and he didn’t snoop enough to find out.
So even if your hubby is cool with ethical (there’s that word again) non-monogamy, the fact that this has been going on for ten years and part of your justification is “he trusted you and didn’t investigate, so it’s kinda his fault too” is going to be a hell of a reach for pretty much anybody.
And there’s also the fact that your other guy may or may not know about your husband but does not know about your other “flings”?
Yeah, I’m gonna guess he’s probably not gonna be entirely cool about it either. And I suspect you know this on some level, because they still don’t know. You haven’t come clean to any of them about this.
Now let me be very generous and say that maybe, for you, the secrecy is part of the appeal. The sneaking around gives everything a bit of extra spice and you also take that spice and plow it into your marriage as well, meaning that everyone wins. Well… you can still have that in an ethical open relationship, where everyone understands that you’re not going to tell them everything and you’re going to keep some things to yourself. That’s a thing that people do!
But the folks who do it ethically (nope, not gonna stop hammering this any time soon, get into the rhythm of it) do so with the knowledge and consent of the other partners. They agree to not investigate and let you have your “secret” flings.
(This, incidentally, is an example of how it’s possible to cheat, even in an open relationship. Just because you aren’t monogamous doesn’t mean you can’t still be a cheater.)
TL;DR: are you able to live your life free from the judgement of your friends? Sure… just stop cheating on your husband and side-piece. Be honest with them, let them decide if they’re willing to be in an open relationship and, y’know, do a shitload of work to make up for ten years of cheating and deception.
Until then? You’re going to have to live with the knowledge that your friends think less of you for this… and they’re right to do so.
Hello Dr. NerdLove
I wanted to reach out, because I’m having a bit of a weird phase in life. For a quick origin story, I’m 25, living in a major city in the South, and work in corporate entertainment, and I’m also a part time model and voice over artist. Part of my job(s) are to go out and interact with people, and do everything from make them feel great about whatever they need, and hopefully make some good genuine connections along the way. Most of time off is spent going to different parties/gatherings, social events, and playing online video games. It’s also worth mentioning that the majority of my friends are women, who I have a great relationship with!
However, with all that being said, I also am at a point where when it comes to relationships, I’m lonely. I’ve been single for almost 7 years now, and outside of one (awful) woman who asked if I wanted a relationship (she was psycho to put it mildly), I’ve never had anyone want to be in a relationship with me all this time. I haven’t dated a ton in the past 7 years (maybe 10 girls total, MAYBE), and usually after the first few dates they tell me the same thing of “I really like you, you’re super attractive and great at conversation, BUT, I just see you as more of a friend,” which is fine, some of the best women I’m friends with we started out dating, but after awhile it does get a bit lonely.
A few months ago, I had to move, and I moved in with a gay friend of mine. He told me that the majority of the apartment complex is gay, which I have no issue with, and so I started hanging out with him and his “friends” (let’s face it, even hotdogs need buns, and his friends would be happy to help put the meal together). So as I started hanging out with them and going to gay bars and events, I started to get hit on, and to be blunt, it’s the first time I was truly feeling desired. To walk into a bar, have guys stare at me, come up and talk to me, offer to buy me drinks, and sometimes even grope me (which for the record, please don’t EVER do, but for the sake of transparency, it made me feel phenomenal getting that kind of validation). Then, when I’d reject them, they were all super cool about it, or they’d ask if I just wanted to talk, and proceed to actually have a fun conversation with me. With women, outside of specific dates, that never happens just randomly in bars/public. I’ve never been approached by a woman, never really turned heads as I walked around like that, and never had people be so open about liking me.
With that being said, now when I go out to regular bars (just go with it), I find women to not be fun, and I often find myself disappointed. It’s even gotten to the point where I just look down on women for how much work they require to MAYBE get a conversation out of them. I know the basics of having a good conversation, ask about them and make them feel valued, and I totally get why women are more hesitant than guys, after all they have a lot more to lose, and when men get rejected, let’s just say some guys can put Rocky to shame. I guess what I’m really asking is for help coping with the emotions of looking down on women so much and looking at gays so highly.
Thanks,
Boy’s Night Out
I guess we have two for the “sounds fishy but OK…” pile, today.
This actually ties into the recent letter from Wee Baby Man about the difference between being attractive and being good looking: that is, that ultimately what a lot of men are missing is a sense of validation. The idea of women initiating the conversation, being the first to flirt or hit on someone or even the one to propose a date is often more about feeling validated and desired than anything else.
And to be fair, this is an understandable desire, especially when you’re socially inexperienced or having a dry spell, as many folks are. Dating apps, in particular, can be disappointing and demoralizing, especially after more and more of them move to a swipe mechanic. When you feel like you’re shouting into the void or dealing with the echos of an empty inbox, it can be hard to not take it personally. It’s much easier to feel like it’s something wrong with you, specifically and not, say, the incredibly lopsided gender ratio, the way men and women use dating apps entirely differently or the fact that the algorithms directly affect who you are and aren’t seeing and who’s seeing you.
But it also requires an understanding of gender dynamics, especially within a dating scenario. And one of the dynamics that can’t really be ignored is that men of all sexualities are freer to express interest in others than women are and with less social and physical risk. In fact, the fact that men have that social freedom is precisely why women tend to be more closed off and less receptive to talking to strangers… even in platonic or professional spaces. Just about every woman out there has stories of men who assume that “existing in public” is an invitation to being hit on, despite giving every “do not disturb” signal in history. This includes social media, professional networking events, even just walking down the street.
There’s a reason why “LinkedIn is not a dating app” is a meme, after all.
Now, if I take your letter at face value, BNO – and gonna be honest here, the “I find being groped by strangers I’m not attracted to to be validating” pushes the limits of credibility – then what you’re experiencing are the differences in how men move through the world versus the way women do. The background radiation of your life doesn’t include strangers who see you as an object for their consumption, rather than a person, nor does it include people who think that your interest in not being hit on is less important than their desire to get into your pants.
Yeah, the guys at the gay club are into you and give you all that wonderful validation and take less “effort” to connect with than women. But there’re some significant differences – ones that go beyond just “they have sex with other men”.
To start with, there’s the fact that this is an opt-in space for you. If you, as a cis, straight man, decide that you’re not comfortable with people angling to get into your pants, you’re free to leave. Once you step outside that door, the world generally accepts your autonomy and treats you as an individual, not an object.
(Results may vary for people of color, trans and nonbinary people)
You’re vanishingly unlikely to have random people come up and grab you, demand your number, follow you around or get upset when you refuse to engage with them in the exact manner that they prefer. Women and people who present more feminine, on the other hand, regularly find that they’re running a gauntlet of men who have no compunction with making it clear that their desires trump everything else. For many, it can feel like there’s literally no escape when customers, delivery drivers, rideshares and randos on Facebook or Instagram feel entitled to their time, attention and affection.
And while I’m glad that so far the guys who have been hitting on you have been cool with rejection, having someone not seem to give a damn about your disinterest can be incredibly uncomfortable.
It’s also worth noting that gay bars, specifically are more than just pick-up joints. For queer people in general and gay men in particular, gay bars have long been community centers as much as anything else, literal safe spaces where they can socialize with their peers without needing to hide or apologize for their sexuality. It’s a place where they can just be, without shame, fear or reservation, a feeling that straight cis people take for granted.
(I say gay men in particular since lesbian bars are nearly extinct)
This is relevant in no small part because it directly influences the social atmosphere and context of the bar, and thus your experiences in it. When you’re hanging out in a place that’s the center of the social world for your friends and their community, you’re going to experience an entirely different vibe than you would in a straight bar. Think of it as the difference between your neighborhood watering hole where everyone knows your name vs. a high energy singles bar. People are primed to be social, in no small part because everyone’s there for the same reasons. And since thus far you’ve had positive experiences with folks who’ve been cool about taking “no” with grace, it’s not surprising you’ve had a better, more relaxed time.
When you’re approaching women you don’t know, especially if you’re not prioritizing women giving you approach invitations, it’s not that surprising that you aren’t automatically getting the same openness or having to “work” a little harder. You’re dealing with people who frequently have good reason to be more cautious or more closed of, who may not be in the mood to socialize with new people and who simply may not want to be hit on at that moment. Even if you’re doing everything right and you’re absolutely charming and delightful, you’re still going to be dealing with the sins of others who weren’t nearly as charismatic, friendly or trustworthy as you might be.
And let’s be honest here: cold approaches are difficult under the best of circumstances. They’re treated as the ne plus ultra of dating and meeting partners, but the fact is that the plurality of people meet their partners either through friends or shared activities, with dating apps rapidly becoming the second-most common method.
Now if you want to have an easier time just having a good conversation with women and maybe connecting with them on a deeper level? Start being more social in general, and in places where it’s generally expected to meet and make friends. Meet Ups, group activities, classes, amateur sports leagues… these are all places where people meet up specifically to meet other cool people, make friends and enjoy themselves. Rather than hitting on them, giving the vibe of “I’m just here to have a good time and talk to cool people”, you’re going to find more folks will be interested in talking with you. Similarly, if some of your friends (gay or straight) introduce you to some women they know, you’re going to have a much better time; your friend is serving as a sort of social proof for you, vouching for the fact that you’re cool. That, in turn, means that those new potential friends are going to be less guarded or defensive… assuming that you stay cool, that is.
Oh, and one more thing. Want women at bars to be more open to talking with you? Bring some of those female friends you were bragging about before. Having women around you who clearly enjoy your company, who are vouching for your status as “he’s a good guy” with their presence and who are genuinely your friend is possibly one of the best ways to draw the sort of attention (and effort) that you’re hoping for. Again: it’s social proof; these women are saying “he’s a good guy, you can feel safe around him”, and that increases the chances that some of those other women will be interested in getting to know you.
Good luck.
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