Estimated reading time: 13 minutes
Hi Doctor Nerdlove,
How do I navigate the earlier stages of dating if I am a more “submissive” guy personality-wise if you will? It’s not that I’m a total pushover who’s looking for someone to dictate my life, but just as many women still like to be wooed and have the moves made on them – so do I. I guess I look at a lot of the stuff guys do for women, and would love if a woman did that kind of stuff for me. More “aggressive” displays of affection, taking the lead at least a good bit of the time, maybe projecting an air of authority and “wearing the pants” in the relationship and what have you.
I’m a shyer, more sensitive, and more emotionally “warm” guy who, factoring in compatibility and shared interests, is mostly attracted to women who are more assertive, smart (and not afraid to hide it), and usually have a “not taking other people’s shit” kind of attitude.
I see that tons of women still want the guy to take the lead, and in lots of your articles I’ve read, it still seems like it’s up to me to create attraction, escalate, break the touch barrier, and so on. And I understand why this is the case, given how women have been socialized and even punished for taking initiative.
I know that there are some women who do like taking the lead and might be attracted to subbier guys, but I sure haven’t come across any of them irl yet.
So, how do I handle the touch barrier and other early escalations as someone who, as far as I can tell, perceives romance in a much different way than most guys? I worry about taking the initiative on all of those escalations putting me off on the wrong first foot and giving a wrong impression of the way I want to be seen in a relationship. Like, if I make those escalations, won’t that set a precedent that I will be the initiating party forevermore?
Or that at some point there will be an expectation for me to step into the “guy” role in the relationship? Is there a way to escalate when needed without risking sliding into those perceptions?
Flirting is another area I’m pretty much clueless in. I know you’ve said one way to get an idea of flirting is to take a look at how guys do it in shows or movies, but most of the examples I’ve seen still fall into the same gender role-normative script, where even a shyer guy will “step up” and emulate some masculine signifier. Any other time a woman initiates or is the leading partner the guy just freezes up for comedic effect, which I’m sure is much more endearing in fiction than real life. Are there any examples of subby/receptive guys you can pull from or should I instead try to just copy certain female-coded methods of flirting?
Or, should I nip this in the bud even further and find ways to select for women who won’t have these expectations in the first place?
All in all, I guess I fear getting put in the Man Box given how certain gender role-normative expectations are still normalized and unavoidable in today’s dating sphere. I don’t know if dysphoria is the right word as I’m not trans, but the idea of you have to fulfill X role in a relationship and will be seen as Y because you’re a man has always given me icky feelings.
I know it’s much, MUCH harsher number-wise (and in most other ways) for LGBTQ people, but I can’t deny that I feel some envy at how none of my close gay and lesbian friends have had to deal with same-gendered partners expecting certain things from them just because they are a guy/girl.
Soft-Feels Boy
Whoooo boy, a whole lotta LGBTQ people are gonna start laughing at the idea that same-sex couples not running headlong into the expectations problem. Between the top/bottom/switch trichotomy to issues like Lesbian Sheep Syndrome (AKA who makes the first move?), being attracted to the same sex doesn’t change the fact someone’s gonna be the more aggressive or dominant partner and the other is going to be the more docile or submissive one.
But that may actually be the switch you need to flip in your head, SFB: instead of thinking of it in gendered terms, think of it in terms of personality. You want someone who’s more aggressive and more dominant. You like someone who’s more likely to take the lead. Focusing on people who have that more assertive, type A personality is going to work a lot better than thinking of it in terms of gender.
Another way to change how you think about things is to frame your interest as wanting to be romanced. This is more common among men than you might think. One of the more interesting threads in the Ask Reddit subreddit was about what things men would like to do more of if it weren’t stigmatized as being too “feminine” or “girly”. A surprising number of them talked about wanting to get flowers from their partners, to be taken on dates instead of planning them and to be wooed the way women are. And honestly, there’re a lot of women out there who’d love to do the wooing – that whole “gifts and “acts of service” aspect of love languages coming into play.
(Yes, I know the whole ‘love languages’ thing was born out of sexist dreck; it’s still a convenient shorthand for talking about how people show and receive love.)
Owning those aspects of yourself and thinking of them in terms of an assertive/retiring, dominant/submissive axis instead of male/female will go a long way towards making it easier to find people who you’d be compatible with.
However, one of the things that you should keep in mind is that just because one partner is more assertive, more dominant or more take-charge, that doesn’t automatically make the other partner a wilting flower who waits passively for things to happen. It often comes down to other areas of personality; some people are planners and organizers, some aren’t. This is frequently irrespective of whether they’re the more dominant member of the couple.
But even in opposite sex couples whose relationship fits into more traditional gender roles, the less dominant or aggressive partner will still initiate or make their own moves. It may not be as frequent as the more aggressive partner, but that doesn’t mean that it never happens. Nor, for that matter, does the more submissive partner not get a say in things. The fact that they’re not the one who’s “in charge”, for lack of a better term, doesn’t mean that they don’t advocate for their needs or interests… including when those interests are to get banged like a screen door in a hurricane.
And whomever makes the first move isn’t “locked” into always making the first move forever going forward. The first move, whether it’s asking someone on a date, touching them, moving in for (or asking for) the kiss, is often as much about who feels safer or more secure in doing so or who’s willing to risk getting rejected. After all, the whole point of making one’s move is to signal interest – you’re demonstrating that you are, in fact, attracted to that person and to move things forward if they feel the same way.
While yes, making the first move has traditionally fallen on the man in opposite sex couples, that’s in no small part because of the various risks that women faced – the danger ranged from reputational to physical. Men were and are rewarded for being more aggressive in the pursuit of sex and relationships and so often feel more empowered to make the first move.
But women worry about all the same things men do when it comes to showing interest. They worry about reading things wrong, assuming interest where there isn’t any or making a move and getting rejected, just as men do. Even more assertive women worry about it. Since you have less risk and more social permission to be expressive in this way, your making the first move when necessary is, in its way, clearing the runway for the other person. You’re making sure that they know they’ve got permission to take the lead now that they can feel assured you’re into them just as they’re into you. Especially if you make it clear that you’re more of a reciprocator than an initiator.
You may also want to think of it this way: showing that you’re willing to take the initiative is also a way of showing that you’re not going to be a pillow prince, who just lays there and expects his partner to do everything. Women want a partner, not a pet. Many, many women date guys who expect them to do the lion’s share of the work in the relationship. Demonstrating that you’re willing to do your share of the lifting is a mark in the plus column.
The more you can focus on personality instead of gender when it comes to these areas, the more you can find examples of the sorts of behavior you might want to emulate. You may, for example, want to watch shows or movies with more queer characters and see how the less aggressive member of the couple acts. Or watch shows that’re more focused on female leads and how their relationships play out – especially if they don’t follow the traditional male/female roles in the relationship. Capote vs. the Swans gives some interesting examples; the Swans (especially Slim and CZ) are very much in charge in their relationships, especially behind the scenes. Or you could look at how the very self-consciously femme Capote conducts his affairs (and then do the opposite because for the life of me I have no idea why the fuck anyone actually likes the whiny, self-absorbed little shit, but that’s another story nevermind).
You don’t need a 1-to-1 example, just things that you can look at and say “Ah, I see how the dynamics work here” and think about how that you can incorporate that behavior in ways that’re congruent with your personality.
Part of taking ownership of this and understanding it as a matter of personality rather than gender makes it easier to sell yourself that way. You’re a more submissive guy who wants a more dominant partner; you want to be romanced and seduced. You like taking the supporting role instead of the lead. The more you can articulate this – both in person and on the apps – the more you can filter for the people who are right for you. Even if you have to explain it up front, what you’re ultimately doing is giving people the “here’s how you succeed with me” instruction manual.
Now, are there women who are very invested in traditional gender roles? Of course. But those aren’t the women who’re right for you, and the vast majority will sort themselves right out of your dating pool before it’s even an issue. The ones that don’t will show themselves out very quickly, and good riddance.
However, whether you find your perfect ambitious, aggressive tomboy queen right off the bat or you meet someone who seems like she may or may not be more traditionally aligned on the gender role axis, you need to be willing to actually say “this is who I am, this is what I like, this is what I’m looking for”.
The more you’re willing to own it, without shame or apology, the easier it will be to find the folks you’re looking for… even if you have to the one to start things off in the beginning.
Good luck.
Hello Dr!
Recently I was working out , losing fat and just enjoying myself, talking to everyone and making friends, but I don’t understand something about a feeling I feel.
Let me explain. I make a lot of friends at my local gym! I mean, I know everyone and I enjoy talking to them and well, just enjoying myself. Recently, a girl who is fit – like, really fit – from my gym add me to her Instagram. I was like, “cool she adds me because I talk to her, makes sense”, but… she responds to my IG stories with fires and such. She is flirting with me and let me tell you, I’m VERY far from a gym bro. I’m kinda chubby, I don’t have a six pack and I don’t even look good on the photos that I post. I mean c’mon, this is weird. Is she doing this because she is trying to joke with me? I don’t understand. I mean yes, I’m friendly and such, but I don’t flirt with anyone at the gym so this is like, I don’t know, I just simply can’t imagine why a girl like her would be attracted to me. I feel weird and I feel like maybe someone is fucking with me. This week I did not even go to the gym because of that feeling.
What do I do?
Gym Ratatouille
What’s going on here? Well, there’re two strong possibilities.
The first is that she’s being friendly and supportive in the way that women often can be with their friends. A lot of women will hype their friends up, especially online. With female or queer male friends (or straight male friends who they trust not to take things the wrong way or make things weird), they’ll tell them that they look hot or that they’re awesome. It’s encouragement and positive engagement, cheering them on and celebrating them. So it’s possible that this is what’s going on; you’re a friend and she’s being a cheer squad for you.
The second is that she’s into you and flirting in a low-key way in the hopes that you’ll notice and make a move already.
Yeah, she’s super fit and you’re not. So? Just because someone’s got a six pack or 10% body fat doesn’t mean that they’re only into other people who are in the same shape as them. Not every gym bro or sis is looking for a fellow hardbody, and a lot of folks understand that fit comes in many shapes and sizes. Being chubby doesn’t mean that you’re not fit or active, it just means the amount of adipose tissue you have and the size of your clothes. She may appreciate that you put the work in to be healthy without being a fantatic. Hopefully you can appreciate wanting to work out and enjoying being in motion or getting stronger without being fatphobic in the process.
There’s also the fact that you’re a friendly social guy who clearly isn’t at the gym just to hit on people. People enjoy talking to you and like it when you’re around. That’s pretty damn appealing. When folks feel gratified and pleased by someone’s presence, they tend to prioritize that relationship; it’s known as the Reward Theory of Attraction.
Is it possible that this is a prank and she’s playing some weird game? Sure… in an infinite universe, almost anything is possible. But the vast, vast majority of people out there have too much going on in their own lives to put in the level of effort to punk someone like this. That’s the sort of behavior that folks tend to leave behind in high-school and even then it’s not something that can be maintained for terribly long.
So how do you figure out what the likely scenario is? Well that one’s easy: if you like her and you two seem compatible, then ask her on a date. Find a time when you two are talking and then say “hey, there’s $FUN_THING going on this weekend; if you’re interested, I’d love to take you.” If she’s into it… hey, you’ve got your answer. If she’s not… you’ve got your answer. And if it’s the case that she’s cheering you on and being supportive and not flirting, then the best thing to do is just keep being your fun social self. Part of not making it weird is to not be weird about it. If you demonstrate that you’re willing to push through the momentary awkward of “oh, I misread that” and show that you’re going to be cool about things now that you know, she’ll behave accordingly.
But assuming that she couldn’t possibly like you because you’re not Men’s Health cover-model jacked? Those are just self-limiting beliefs, my guy. She can be into you because you’re an awesome dude who looks like how hugs feel just as other people can be into folks so buff that feel like you’re hugging a statue.
Good luck.
www.doctornerdlove.com
