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Hi Dr. Nerdlove,
I (late 20s NB) got laid on Valentines! Hell yeah! It was with a good friend, and the experience was quite nice: we were both very happy with it. But in the time since, I’ve realized I am *not* ready for a serious romantic relationship (and like, maybe this is something I need to talk to my therapist about, maybe this situation wouldn’t be quite right anyway.)
Now, there… wasn’t actually a lot of talking about what this was – it was a “so, we’re both single. I think you’re cute – and, you think I’m cute too! It’s been years since I’ve kissed anyone – do you want to hook up?” conversation. I’m very fond of this person, and would love repeat that hook up again, but the idea of going on a Serious Date or Committing has me jittery and uncomfortable.
And maybe he’s on the same page as I am, but there was cuddling involved. Maybe he’s just a gentleman, but I do not want to break this dude’s heart or mislead him at all.
I’m the opposite of a mind reader, so I try and be very upfront about what’s going on with me. This guy… is getting better at advocating for what he wants, but I do have a real worry that he might try to go along with something I want even if it doesn’t work for him. Like, you are an incredibly caring, wonderful person to be around, bud, but I NEED YOU TO SPEAK UP ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT.
So, I’m probably going to be initiating some kind of conversation soon. You have that “defining the relationship” article, but… most of the “giving a warning ahead of time” scripts you give kind of seem geared towards people who are looking to define something into something more serious– and if I lead with that,
How do you lead into a “Friends? With Benefits?”/”What do you want out of this?” conversation with the minimum amount of pressure or getting hopes up?
Sincerely,
Bro, I Love You (But Not Like That)
First: congrats on the Valentine’s Day hookup! I’m well established as not being a fan of Lover’s Holy Day of Capitalist Obligation, but hey, I am always a fan of folks getting the mutually rewarding hook-up.
Now, I need to drop an editing note: you seem to have forgotten the rest of the sentence after “… and if I lead with that”. But based on the context, I’m guessing you’re worried that you’re going to give the wrong message to your current snugglebunny.
If that’s the case… well, you’ve fallen victim to one of the classic blunders the most famous of which is “don’t assume you’re a mindreader; use your words” (which you’re trying to avoid, well done), but only slightly less well known is this: “You can’t control how other people feel or respond to you, you can only control what you present to them”.
The biggest headaches in casual relationships are when everyone tries to avoid conversations that they really should be having, especially as the relationships progress – especially when worried that maybe they’re leading the other person on… somehow. The best practices are to lay things out early on, so that everyone understands what’s going on. But if you didn’t manage that, you still want to at least have a check in and makes sure that everybody’s on the same page… and that you’re actually reading from the same book.
It’s understandable that trying to initiate these conversations can be stressful. There’s the fear of rejection, of course, but there’s also the fear of embarrassment – of coming across like you presumed too much, that you misread things or that you care more (or less) than the other person does. Or, worst of all: you’ve somehow lead them to think that this relationship might be more than it actually is or can be.
That often can lead to one of the biggest sins of a casual relationship: treating the other person casually, in order to reduce the likelihood of the other person catching feelings.
Part of why these conversations are important is that, because without actually talking things through, it gets very easy to blur lines and cause misunderstandings. What you think something means isn’t always what the other person means by it. This is where folks often end up getting confused and causing conflicts where conflicts might not have otherwise existed.
Take your post-coital cuddles, for example. The fact that your guy didn’t immediately leap up, clean himself off on your dish towel and vacate the premises doesn’t mean that the afterglow are the waves of infatuation radiating out of him; some folks are just cuddlers. Some people enjoy laying there and having continued intimate contact, afterwards. Sometimes it’s romantic, sometimes it’s politeness and sometimes, hey, it just feels good.
Similarly, folks who don’t cuddle aren’t cold-hearted bastards who just wanted to hit it and quit it. It may be physically uncomfortable for them (especially if they have issues like joint pain), they may have sensory issues (feeing too many different sensations gets overwhelming) or just plain don’t care for cuddling, even if they like the person they’re with.
When you make assumptions about what X means, you’re making them based on your expectations, your experiences and how you communicate things. The other person doesn’t necessarily share those and has very different ideas about what X means to them. So it’s better to just make things clear than it is to guess.
At the same time – and I’m saying this as someone who dated a person who was explicit about not wanting a serious relationship and figured he could change her mind – you can’t control how other people react.
It’s admirable that you’re worried about not leading the guy on or not letting him get stuck in a casual relationship when he wants more… you can’t really take on responsibility for other people’s feelings, nor can you control them. There are no magic words that will preclude someone developing feelings or even just straight up not listening. You can be explicit and blunt about what you want and what you don’t want, laying it out with such precision and clarity, anticipating every possible bad faith interpretation and closing of every loophole that contract lawyers would weep with envy and some people will still respond with “I reject your reality and substitute my own”.
You’re dealing with a grown-ass man here, even if he’s someone who has a hard time advocating for his own needs. You can’t advocate for him, to him. The best you can do with another person… well, your best. You lay it out as clearly as possible and they either say “ok, got it” or “nope, I’m out”. If they say the former while doing the mental equivalent of crossing their fingers behind their backs… well, that’s on them.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying: just tell him. Tell him what you told me in this letter: you like him, you’d definitely be into hooking up again but also you know, for 100% certainty, that you’re not up for a romantic relationship or even things that have the trappings of a serious relationship. Lay out the exact four corners of what you are up for and make it clear that romance – including romantic dates – are well outside of them. If he’s cool with that, then blessings on you both. If not… well, you had great sex and that’s great too and you’re still good friends. That hasn’t changed.
Now one thing to remember is that this isn’t a one-time conversation. I’m a big believer in checking in with your partner and make sure that this is still meeting your needs and their needs. And it can be hard to open up if there’s an issue. Sometimes people won’t speak up because they worry that doing so would mean the end of the relationship. And while it’s an understandable worry, leaving things unsaid for fear of rocking the boat is how you end up with unnecessary heartbreak and ultimately making things hurt so much more when the truth comes out.
It’s admirable that you worry about this and it’s a credit to you as a person that you care. But he’s still a grown man with agency. If it really does come down to “he caught feelings for you, but didn’t want to say because this is the only way he could be with you”… well, I don’t mean to sound callous but that is on him.
Hopefully, modeling the behavior you want to see and encouraging that open communication and sharing how you’re feeling about things will empower him to advocate for his own needs.
Good luck.
Dear Dr. NerdLove: I have a girl I’ve sort of adopted, and she is having sex with the men in my friend circle and they all have girlfriends including my ex and my boyfriend she had become friends with these woman also she has sex with these men and afterwards says she is a piece of shit and she don’t know why she does it.
But I should have been the exception of the rule, because I have been there for her and she lived with me and I took care of her she is in her mid-twenties and should know better I’ve had gut feeling for the last 6 months that there was some secret something going on between her and my boyfriend. They both denied anything happening I left for a three week trip out of town and within a week they had a threesome together, knowing how I was feeling about the who situation.
Is there a mental health issue for a woman to blatantly disregard people’s feelings and boundaries to people who has done absolutely nothing to her to deserve this type of disrespect and horrible behavior? She now has no lasting friendships and really doesn’t seem very upset when she is confronted by the women she has hurt she just says “I don’t know why I did it ” “I’m a piece of shit ” but she continues to sleep with more men, almost like she has to have other woman’s men.
I’m truly hoping you could bring some light to why she would behave this way before someone really hurts her for sleeping with their husband or boyfriend.
Not Down With OPP
I’m not sure why you thought you’d be an exception, NDOPP. This sounds very much like a case of “curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal”. You knew who she was and what she was like. She hadn’t shown respect to anyone else’s relationships; the fact that you were close with her and treated her like found family doesn’t necessarily grant magic resistance to her desire to fuck up other people’s lives.
Now as for why? Well… honestly, the why is less important. It’s not as though knowing that, say, she has deep-seated trauma and punishes herself by consciously or subconsciously isolating herself by burning every conceivable bridge is going to change things or make it better. She’s still fucking up people’s relationships with joyous abandon.
I’m also not inclined to ascribe a mental health issue to her behavior. Being an asshole isn’t a mental illness, after all, and some people are just assholes.
It’s certainly possible that she has something akin to borderline personality disorder; some people with BPD will act out in disruptive and harmful ways as a particularly dysfunctional form of self-defense. BPD tends to correlate with trauma and a deeply ingrained fear of rejection and being hurt and some people will behave in ways that push others away in a misguided attempt to keep from being hurt.
Is that what’s happening here? Fucked if I know. Having BPD doesn’t make you a serial cheater/homewrecker, and god knows most people who do have BPD don’t act out like this. Just as relevantly, though: Dr. NerdLove is not a mental health professional, and even if I were I wouldn’t be able to diagnose someone third hand via letter.
The more important part is that, as I said, it doesn’t really matter. Maybe she does have BPD. Maybe she has some sort of trauma and she acts out sexually. Maybe she just really likes breaking taboos or gets off on the power of knowing she can “take” someone else’s man from them. In either case, it’s not as though there’s anything you can do to change that. You’re not her doctor, her legal guardian or someone who’s in a position to actually “fix” her, nor should you be trying.
However, there’s also the fact that it seems like you’re putting everything on her and not on the men – including your boyfriend – for their part in this. Someone can’t “steal” your man, as though he had no choice in the matter. It’s not like she’s a succubus, magically enthralling men and leading them into temptation against their will. All of the men involved are as much to blame; it takes two to tango, and they all chose to cheat with her. And while I’m on record as saying that not all infidelities are equal, there’s a difference between “I had too much to drink and failed my wisdom saving throw while I was on vacation” and hooking up with someone who’s been making her way through the entire friend circle and leaving destruction in her wake.
This is why the “why” of her actions doesn’t really matter. The bigger, more important “why” is “why is she still in your life”? Even if we leave out the “well she never did it to me” aspect (especially since she eventually did), the fact that this person was causing such chaos and strife in your social circle sounds like a very good reason to kick her the fuck out. It’s also a good reason to be upset with the folks she cheated with.
That it eventually came back around and bit you in the ass? Well, like the scorpion said to the frog, “you knew I was a scorpion when you met me”.
Stop worrying about the “why” and focus more on the “what” – specifically, what’re you going to do about her. And my recommendation would be for you and your friends to drop her like fifth period French.
Good luck.
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