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Hello,
There’s a woman who goes to the same swing dance place as me regularly. A couple of months ago, after we spent a bit of time together, I started to feel a connection with her and started to grow attracted to her. I had already known her for a few months prior to that, but haven’t had as much of a conversation or a connection with her as then, mainly due to being busy dancing. I have not asked her out or let her know about this, my anxiety gets the better of me for a few reasons.
The first reason is that I haven’t seen any strong indicators she’s attracted to me or wants to go out with me. However, I haven’t seen any signs that she would be opposed to me asking her out either. She is comfortable talking to me and dancing with me. Now, many may say “just shoot your shot, the worst she can say isn’t no”, but that leads to the other and arguably greater reason for my anxiety.
The other reason is that there’s, let’s just say, a bit of discourse about looking for dates at Swing dance. I’ve seen discussions from different communities about this, and I’ve seen a few women say that ANY amount of flirting is enough to make her uncomfortable, warn the other women about him, and possibly report him to the event organizers. In my city, there is a swing dance meetup (not the one I see her at, but there is some overlap between the people who go to both) that explicitly prohibits looking for dates in the code of conduct. If you think I’m missing nuance here, to paraphrase the rule, “the dance floor is not a place to ask people on dates, and this will not be tolerated”. Again, this rule isn’t from the same place that I see her at, but it’s in the same city, and there is overlap between the people who go to both. I understand that swing, and social dance in general, relies on women being comfortable there for the scene to exist, so I need to make sure everything is alright. I don’t want to get blacklisted from a hobby I enjoy just because I broke an unspoken rule that I didn’t realize was there. For this reason, I am also afraid to tell any mutual friend of ours about how I feel, for this exact same reason.
So what do you think? Should I pursue this any further? And if so, how?
Swing Kid
This is an interesting question, SK, because there’re some layers to this.
Let’s start with the most obvious: should you ask this woman out? Based on the information you’ve given, and your understandable concerns, I would say “probably not”, or at least “not yet”. Not out of a worry about risk or potential consequences, but because it doesn’t sound like there’s mutual interest there.
To be sure, I don’t think that you need to worry about negative consequences if you were to ask her on a date. A lot of the worries that folks have when it comes to asking people out are, frankly, overblown. A lot of the anxiety about when it is or isn’t appropriate to ask someone on a date comes from spending too much time on TikTok or various subreddits and the multitude of posts of women complaining about dudes having the temerity to speak to them.
Now in fairness: there are a lot of these, so it’s understandable that folks without much social experience might think that “unnnngh, some guy talked to me out in public it’s so creeeeeeepy” is the dominant social more these days. The problem, however, is that this ignores a lot of other factors. One important one is internal: if you’re already prone to worrying about being an accidental creeper, reading those posts or watching those videos will reinforce your pre-existing anxiety. However, this runs smack dab into our old friend confirmation bias – the tendency of our minds to give greater importance to information that confirms what we already believe, while disregarding information that contradicts those beliefs. So, if you’re already worried about making a faux pas and getting run out of town, you’re going to take those videos as proof that your worries are justified.
However, this misses some of those other factors I mentioned. To start with: despite the seeming ubiquity of these videos or stories, they’re not the majority or even a plurality. They seem to be everywhere for two reasons. First is that they’re a very popular topic, in part because they feed into our innate negativity bias. Stories about things that go well or someone talking about how great life is doesn’t get nearly as much engagement as someone complaining about a negative thing that happened to them. They create a sense of drama and encourage people to join in on the second-hand outrage or disbelief. There’s a reason why the movie wasn’t called “Blackhawk Up“, after all. These videos and stories not only encourage people to share their own stories, and in fact create a feedback loop that encourages a sense of one-upsmanship. There’re tangible rewards – in engagement, views and so on – to saying “oh you think that’s bad, here this is worse” and either juicing the story for entertainment value or creating new narratives out of whole cloth. Look at how the infamous “Couch Guy” story went from someone who didn’t seem sufficiently surprised to see his long-distance girlfriend to a narrative of how he was clearly cheating on her with everyone else in the building.
The second reason those stories seem to be ubiquitous is because the algorithms are primed to show them to you. TikTok, in particular, has this down to a science. If you engaged with a couple videos about how a dude was a creeper, TikTok is going to make sure that even more of these are in your feed. That, in turn, creates the feeling in the viewer that everyone feels this way.
Incidentally, this happens without algorithms too; because of the siloed nature of social media, you may well have created a bubble for yourself where you’re more likely to see these stories, simply based on who you follow and interact with. A couple people retweeting similar posts over and over again can create the illusion of much greater numbers when, in reality, it’s simply a very curated slice of people’s opinions.
This isn’t to say that there aren’t creepers out there or folks who assume that women exist as something for them to consume, rather than autonomous individuals who’re just out living their lives. There are absolutely folks who see a woman merely existing in public as an invitation to try to pick them up. But it’s also worth remembering that most folks meet their partners in person. While most relationships don’t start off cold approaches, our relationships (whether platonic, sexual or romantic) tend to start by meeting strangers with similar interests. Such as, say, swing dancing.
But – dragging this back to your initial question – in your specific case, SK, there seems to be a lack of mutual interest and connection. While you and she have talked and have danced together, it doesn’t sound like she’s giving any signs that she’s interested in more. In fact, it seems that at the moment, you’re mostly acquaintances; you know each other enough to make small talk at an event or to dance together, but not much else. It’s true that you don’t need to be waiting for a woman to be waving you in like air traffic control clearing you for a carrier landing, you should be looking for some signs that she’d like a deeper relationship… and it doesn’t seem like there’s much there right now. Now, this may change over time as you actually talk and get to know each other – exposure and familiarity breeds affection after all – but that’s for the future, not for now. So in this specific case I would say that you can let this one go for now.
Now, let’s talk about the second half of your letter: whether flirting or asking someone on a date will get you blacklisted and drummed out of the community. The answer here is… it depends. However, before you freak out, stick with me for a moment. For now, we’re going to leave aside the possibility that your confirmation bias may have caused you to read too much into what you’ve seen and assume that it’s exactly as you say: any amount of flirting will get you kicked out. Here’s what’s going on: folks have gotten understandably tired of people – presumably but not exclusively men – looking at that group or community as a sex ATM. It’s not that all socializing outside of “would you care to dance” is strictly verboten, but that folks who aren’t part of the community are showing up specifically looking at it as a pool of potential fuckability. They aren’t there for the love of social dancing, they’re there because they think that the women who are there are all potential lays and treat them accordingly. So what ends up happenning is that women who are there because they want to dance – especially if they’re serious about dancing, including competitive dancing – get deluged by randos who are cruising the floor like horny sharks.
So, yeah, if you were to roll in there and bounce from person to person like you were at a dance club or single’s bar… yeah, that’s almost certainly going to get you bounced. Similarly, if you were someone who regularly asked the women you danced with out on dates, you might run afoul of that regulation. Again, that’s not why most of the people are going to that, and too many horny sharks are going to make people quit going. However, if a couple of established regulars find that they have chemistry and a spark over time as they get to know each other and eventually one asks the other out on a date… I highly doubt that anyone’s going to so much as side-eye them for the crime of attraction blooming on the dance floor.
With all that in mind: how could you make sure that you don’t accidentally run into that rule, written or otherwise? Leaving aside the obvious guidelines of “don’t be a dick” and “don’t hit on everyone”, the answer would be “take it outside.” I would find it highly unlikely that, say, the group you mentioned would also have a rule of becoming friends or socializing outside of the group. If you want to avoid tripping that particular rule, then focus more on getting to know folks and becoming, if not friends, then at least friendly enough that you would connect outside of the group as well. If you’re vibing with someone and the two of you regularly enjoy hanging out and talking beyond the length of a song or two, then saying “hey, I really enjoy talking to you – would it be ok if I sent you a friend request on $PREFERRED_SOCIAL_NETWORK?” should be more than acceptable.
This not only gives her the ability to decide whatever level of access she wants to give you, but also lets you stay in touch outside of the venue. You can keep the conversation going via DMs and, assuming there’s that mutual interest, you can invite her out on a date without fear of violating the rules.
Oh, and one more thing: part of how you avoid making things awkward or uncomfortable and risking being blacklisted is to take “no, thank you” with good grace and to continue being the same friendly guy you were beforehand. Part of what makes things awkward or uncomfortable is the unanswered question of “does my turning him down change anything?” If you show through your actions that being turned down is no big deal and you’re still her friend and that nothing else has changed, you demonstrate that she has nothing to worry about. There may be momentary awkwardness, but that’s the sort of thing that’s easily pushed through… especially if you show via your actions that it’s all cool.
Good luck.
Hello Doc,
My girlfriend and I have recently expressed the need to explore new things in our sex life. One of the areas we found each other gravitating towards is the idea of having a threesome.
I’m straight, she’s bi, so our first instinct would be to look for a female partner, but we honestly have no idea how to start or approach the question: we’ve looked into dating apps or creating an online profile for our couple, but we’re having a tough time with the “unicorn hunting” question. Both in a moral sense (a lot of people have raised the question of straight/bi couples looking for an occasional sexual partner in the lgbtqia+ community being unethical or offensive), and also in a practical one.
We’re not interested (at least for now) in being romantically involved with someone outside our relationship or in becoming poly, but, at the same time, we’re finding it hard to start this journey, and are wondering what are the best ways to start and better educate ourselves in the matter.
Thank you very much, as always.
Hunting Party
I’m gonna be honest HP: the term “unicorn” is a personal pet-peeve, if only because I feel it’s the wrong word. I feel that a woman who’s interested and open to threesomes with a hetero couple is more appropriately called an “okapi”: they exist but they’re incredibly rare, while unicorns don’t exist.
But that’s just me being annoyingly pedantic. Anyway, no, you and your girlfriend aren’t wrong about the tendency of hetero couples going out looking for bi or pan women as potential threesomes as being squicky or offensive. A lot of the people who do this tend to treat their special guest star as a disposable commodity, instead of a person, and Christ knows my bi and pan friends have complained about the undercover unicorn hunters who hide the fact that they’re really just looking for a third. More often than not, it seems like they quit reading as soon as they hit “bisexual” and then just assumed that any bi or pan person would be down to clown. It’s pretty insulting when someone thinks that the person they’re flirting with online is genuinely interested in dating her, only to find out that it was a stalking horse situation that lead to being told that she was really just a tool to spice up someone else’s relationship.
Now that doesn’t mean that wanting a threesome is inherently bad or unethical… it’s the way that people go about it that’s the problem. There are, after all, adventurous folks out there who are down for it. So how do you go about a) finding someone who’s open to an occasional threesome and b) do so in an open, up front and ethical manner?
Well, the first and most obvious answer is to hire a sex worker who sees couples. This neatly solves a number of problems; they know exactly what’s on offer and you’re compensating them for their time and effort. Plus, once the encounter’s over, they’re going to take off, eliminating potential post-coital awkwardness. Find an independent escort in your area, check her reviews, fill out her screening questions, pay her fee and make arrangements for your date. It’ll also be helpful to know exactly what sort of experience you want: is this going to be more of a voyeuristic experience, are you and the escort going to be focused on your girlfriend, are she and your girlfriend going to be focused on you, etc. Oh, and be sure to tip well after. It’s just the polite thing to do.
The next option would be to look a little closer to home. Many times, the best potential (non-professional) thirds is an ex. If you or your girlfriend have an ex who you’re on good terms with and who enjoys some sexual adventures, it may well be worth your time to reach out and see if they’d be interested. The pre-existing relationship means that (hopefully) it’ll be a more comfortable and less-awkward experience. Plus, that previous relationship will mean that you (or your girlfriend, depending) will already have a good idea about what they’re into, what turns them on and where their lines are.
The third option is to let the unicorn (or okapi) come to you. Part of why so many people in the LGBTQ community dislike unicorn hunters is because of the objectification and assumptions about bi and pan people, as well as the frequent bait-and-switch nature. However if you hang up your shingle – making it clear what you’re looking for – and let interested parties approach you instead, then you avoid a lot of the potential ethical quandaries and nastiness. You’re allowing for folks to decide in advance if this is something they’d be in to, rather than baiting them or tricking them into it.
One thing that will help in finding a potential third is to pick the right app. While Tinder and OKCupid may be the 500 lb gorillas of the dating app space, there’re apps specifically for kinky, adventurous and/or non-monogamous people. You’re much more likely to find potential thirds on apps like Feel’d or #Open, where the users have self-selected as being into hooking up with or dating couples. Create a profile that clearly features the both of you, be open and transparent about what you’re looking for and what you’re available for. If you’re only looking for an occasional special guest, be up front about that. You don’t want someone who’s looking to be part of a triad or throuple if what you two want is just occasional adventures. If a likely prospect comes along and you get a good vibe from them, make a date for the three of you to get together in public and get to know one another. This is emphatically just for meeting each other and doing your due diligence. You want to make sure the three of you have chemistry, that they’re in good emotional working order and are looking for the same things you are.
If you all get along, this is also a good time to discuss the ground rules for your first time. It’s going to be important that you three have an idea of what is or isn’t going to happen, especially if you and your girlfriend haven’t done this before. Even when everyone’s eager and rarin’ to go, it’s easy to be blindsided by unexpected feels when you see someone else going to town on your sweetie. You may, for example, want to reserve penetration for you and your girlfriend, or leave penetrative sex off the table entirely for the first time. You also want to make sure you have plans about what happens afterwards. You two may not necessarily be up for having a third sleeping in the same bed (or have the room, for that matter). At the same time, saying “that was nice, now get out” is pretty damn rude to do to someone who was part of this great experience.
One thing that may help solve logistics would be to get a hotel room with two beds; this at least gives the option of your guest staying if she chooses, but without the potential discomfort of trying to sleep in a puppy pile afterwards.
I would also like to encourage my LGBTQ readers who’ve either been the special guest or found guests of their own to share their tips and experiences in the comments; hearing from folks who’ve been there (especially as the third) can help make the process smoother and more enjoyable for everyone.
And hey, congratulations on your upcoming adventure. Hope it all goes well for everyone!
Good luck.
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