What Do MEN Think Makes Men Attractive?

Estimated reading time: 16 minutes

Dear Doctor NerdLove,

Long time reader and bona-fide straight woman here. Something struck me in your latest column, “What Makes A Man Attractive to Women?” The LW lists examples of “unattractive” men that masc-attracted women “claim” are hot to illustrate their question. This time, it was Pete Davidson (I only get the appeal in the academic sense there, so I sort of understand the LW’s  confusion) and “that guy from The Bear.” And it honestly took me a second to realize he meant Jeremy Allen White. Jeremy Allen White, Twitter embodiment of the sexually competent dirtbag line cook (also, if straight men want to further understand the appeal, perhaps they should go back and reread the first 2 words of the meme). Jeremy Allen White, who looks like a ripped Botticelli painting come to life. Taste and attraction are both very individual and subjective, so I get if a specific person isn’t particularly into the Italian High Renaissance, but I don’t understand how someone could look at him and not understand how lots of other people would be into it?

This is something that has struck me in almost every iteration of that question that you’ve answered over the years.  Nearly every time, the LW provides examples of “unattractive” men women are going nuts over to prove their thesis and those “unattractive” men are almost always men my straight and bi female friends consider very conventionally attractive.  I find it baffling every time.  I expressed my bafflement to the straight woman group chat and my friends and I quickly ended up with a list of straight men have, at some point or another, expressed confusion with regards to their appeal or have asked us to “explain” much to our confusion: Dev Patel, Oscar Issac, Ryan Gosling, Paul Rudd, Daniel Dae Kim, and Henry Golding. 

Doc. 

These are just hot people. Again, not all of the group chat are personally attracted to all of these men but they all fit comfortably into our collective conception of “handsome guy.”

Which leads to my question: what on earth is the standard straight men are using to judge other men as attractive to women? If Dev Patel and a dude who looks like he was commissioned by a Medici don’t qualify, who does? Is it like, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth and no one else? If the men on my list are showing up in Google searches of “actors who aren’t conventionally attractive,” what the blistering hell is the convention?  (Clearly, whiteness is a factor in the list above, but it’s not the whole story).

Perhaps this is an unanswerable question, but I am honestly curious as to what the letter writers who are contacting you think we’re into.

Sincerely,
Fodder for the Group Chat

My God, it’s like Christmas came early for me. Last week I got a chance to go on about the supposed mystifying appeal of Pete Davidson and this week you’re asking for me to talk about guys idea about whats attractive in other men.

OK, so as a long time reader, you’ve undoubtedly seen the recurring theme of “Am I too ugly to date“, and the usual comparisons to Chris Evans, Hemsworth and Pratt and occasional bonus Henry Cavill’s thrown in for good measure. And, of course, there’s the ever classic point of comparison, Brad Pitt – especially when Pitt was in his Tyler Durden shape for Fight Club.

These tend to be the touchstones for “guys who other guys think women find attractive” – or at least for the folks most prone to write in to advice columns and subreddits to complain about not being able to measure up. You know… extremely online guys. Which is part of the problem. A lot of the folks who are writing in to complain tend to also either be part of online communities – not just incels, but MRAs and redpillers, pick-up artists and various other gathering spots of mostly young men who are also either frustrated or isolated and frequently feel marginalized. There’s a lot of shared wisdom within those communities, the dating and attraction equivalent of “just-so stories” that purport to “explain” what women find desirable in men.

Needless to say, this… doesn’t lend itself well to diverse – or even accurate –  ideas about attractiveness. More often than not, folks tend to drift to a few specific ideals and the men who, in their mind, best represent those ideals. It’s not that surprising, then, that the most common touchstones tend to be men in movies or TV shows predominantly aimed at men. And this is where part of the disconnect happens.

Now, I’m going to seem like I’m going off on a tangent in a couple paragraphs, but trust me: this is all tie together like the end of Unusual Suspects. Just stick with me.

See, the men who are portrayed in these shows – not to mention comics and video games – are, for the most part, primarily power fantasies for other men. They’re the avatar that represents who the viewer, player or reader wishes they could be, someone who dominates, who beats the forces arrayed against them and who is ultimately vindicated in everything he does. It’s not surprising that their look is all about power – six foot tall behemoths, jacked up muscles with single digit body fat, lantern jaws, gimlet eyes, etc. There are minor differences in personality – check the notable difference between Steve Rogers, Geralt of Rivia and Peter Quill – but these are ultimately superficial differences. The idea is that these are folks who can impose their will upon the world and be rewarded for it. And part of that reward is the adoration of women, either in general or one woman in particular. The idea is that power, as Henry “Face Like a Bulldog Licking Piss off A Thistle” Kissinger said, is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

(Nevermind the fact that Kissinger’s reputation as a lady’s man was more self-mythologizing than reality and that his entire game was “listen to what women have to say”, rather than the inherent appeal of being Secretary of State or something…)

But the thing is, the supposed “you can’t get laid unless you look like…” logic isn’t that these men are Sex Gods made flesh, and more about toxic ideals of masculinity. Now don’t get me wrong: nobody’s gonna honestly say that Chris Evans isn’t a good looking man or that his Captain America bod isn’t impressive as hell. But the idea that guys need to look like this isn’t about attraction. Not really. It’s about feeling powerless. It’s about feeling like you don’t have the ability to influence the world or impose your will upon it and this makes you lesser. This is a bitter pill for a bunch of folks who missed the point of Fight Club: that they’ve been sold a bill of goods about  Being A Man, and the supposed rewards that they were promised will never actually be delivered.

But instead of confronting the ideals that make them miserable, that exclude them and clearly were never going to actually pay off the way they were taught, they instead focus on the idea that this means either they did something wrong… or that they’re being cheated of something.

Now, you may notice just how many of the supposed “masculinity” gurus – the ones who’ll teach you how to be a REAL MAN like your ancestors were and how you’re meant to be – put so much emphasis on muscling up. Andrew Tate and the weirdos with self-given nicknames like The Golden One or the dude who called himself Liver King or some shit and dozens of TikTok randos all make a big deal out of trying to look like Ivan Drago all put huge emphasis on “I’m a real man, look at my abs, look like me and you’ll be a real man too unlike the pussified wimps who’re trying to hold you back”. They’re playing to the power aspect, and looking like a body builder is – theoretically an outward sign of being powerful. And the theory is, to quote yet another movie that dudes misunderstand, “you get the power, then you get the women.”

Never mind that they’re running Potemkin lives, fueled by grift, overextended credit, blatant lies and steroid abuse… they’re going to make you a “REAL man”, which means being powerful and in charge and dominant. And only dominant men can succeed. And since these dudes are (supposedly) successful, these are what DOMINANT REAL MEN look like.

But again: it relies on folks’ ignorance. Body builders aren’t actually strong. In fact, when you see someone in superhero shape taking their shirt off on screen, you’re seeing someone who’s actually at their weakest. The dehydration, starvation and overall poor health outcomes give you results that look great on camera – especially when enhanced with makeup and favorable lighting – but leave you feeling like ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack. Cavill, in particular, has been outspoken at just how miserable it is to be in that shape and how they need to get those scenes done in one or two takes, because he’s about to collapse into a puddle.

There’s a reason why the literal strongest men in the world look like ambulatory beer kegs, not like Arnold at the height of his Mister Olympia days. Visible muscle isn’t the same as strong. It looks great, but it’s an illusion.

But since it represents power, and power makes you a “real” man and “real” men are the ones who get women… you get a bunch of guys who think that women reject them because they don’t have eight-pack abs. It’s why the idea of guys who know how to dress decently, trim their nails and don’t douse themselves in Axe was so weird to some folks that people started calling them “metrosexual” – hinting ever so subtly that yeah they’re straight but we can all agree it’s kinda gay, right? Right? Guys? Right?

Now, part of what solidifies this disconnect is the underlying belief that they’ve been lied to, but they’ve figured out the truth. Part of the reason, for example, that a lot of the same guys can’t understand the appeal of Henry Goulding or Dev Patel or Jungkook (besides, y’know, racism), or Pete Davidson or Paul Rudd for that matter, is because they refuse to believe that those guys – who don’t meet those supposed “bio truth” standards – could be attractive. The core of their belief – power, dominance, etc. – is predicated on looking powerful and thus being attractive. They’ll dress it up in language like “being able to provide” or “defend your family” but it’s about imposing their will on others.

Since nobody’s going to accuse Randall Park of being a dominant powerhouse, they feel like the women who “supposedly” find him attractive must be lying for… reasons. Call it virtue signaling, call it wanting to seem woke, but the guys who’ve most bought into the idea of the power fantasy being a sex fantasy will just come up with new, bizarre rationalizations as to why women be lying. Or they’ll complain that birth control makes women want feminine guys instead of REAL men or some other way of protecting their ego.

Meanwhile, girls are having their sexual awakening at David Bowie in Labyrinth and Disney’s animated Robin Hood, or getting squishy feels because of non-physical qualities. The specific way that Michael B. Jordan says “hi, auntie” in Black Panther or Keith David’s basso profundo as Goliath in Gargoyles, or the sometimes weird intensity and passion of Matt Smith as The Doctor… these have all been massive, massive turn-ons for folks, despite these characters not being power fantasies.

Once you see that, it’s everywhere – in movies, magazine covers and advertising. If you dig deep enough – though let’s be honest, it ain’t that deep – it’s easy to see how much incel phrenology conforms to the idea of power and dominance, not actual attractiveness. Between body frames, jaw shape, brow ridge, index fingers and testosterone levels… it’s not about being attractive, it’s about looking powerful, while they’re feeling powerless.

And of course, we can’t ignore the social aspect of it either. Men already have fewer friends – especially close friends – than women and even fewer sources of emotional intimacy or support. You’re not going to find a bunch of (straight) guys pumping each other up about how good they look or how sexy they are because it’s “gay” or “girly” or “weak”. Combine that with the belief that women are lying to them because FUCK YOU, PENIS, THAT’S WHY, and it’s not hard to understand why a lot of guys have mistaken ideas about what makes them attractive to women.

And until guys stop confusing power with attractiveness or giving away their own power… well, that’s probably not going to change any time soon for a significant number of men.

Hello Doc,
A lot of people suggest doing activity groups or hobby groups for meeting friends and potential dates. Well, I’ve gotten out of my comfort zone, found a few new activities that can be done with other people that I genuinely enjoy on their own, such as a few styles of swing dance and yoga, and I do think my life is better because of that. 

However, I have yet to really improve my social lives from these. I haven’t really made any new really good friends, I haven’t had any dates, I haven’t had anyone introduce me to other people they know. I’m not going to lie, I would like to have that happen, but I don’t really know how. Whenever I go to a swing dance night, for most of the night, everyone is doing some combination of the following:

1. Already dancing.
2. Talking to other people.
3. Using their phone.
4. Busy with something else.

Now, people do ask me to dance, and when I don’t get too anxious or down on myself, I ask them, but I don’t really have much interaction with others other than that.

My question is once I’ve started going to activity or hobby groups, then what? What do I do to make friends, find dates, or for other to invite me to functions where I could meet people to ALSO potentially be new friends or dates?

Singled Out

This one’s easy, SO. You even said it yourself: you don’t have much interaction with them outside of dancing.

Well there’s your problem.

Here’s the thing: you seem to be waiting or hoping for other folks to do the work. You showed up, so now it’s their turn, right? Unfortunately, it doesn’t really work that way. You showed up, which is great! But that’s not even half the job done. Hell, that’s barely the first quarter of the job done.

This is something a lot of folks have an issue with. Either they go to an event once and never go again, or they go but don’t interact with anyone, or they go and participate but don’t socialize, or they don’t take active steps to actually connect with people. It’s like they feel they’ve put in the minimum required effort and now they can get their reward for it.

The problem with this approach is that life doesn’t work that way. It’s a very passive way of going through things, hoping that other people will do the hard or scary things for you, instead of having to do it all yourself. And while I can understand that initial feeling of “well, can’t they meet me half way?” or “why do I have to be the one to do all the work?”, this tends to fall under the idea that there’s some kind of magic involved. Do the ritual right and boom, now friends and dates roll in.

But it doesn’t work like that. Not because people are lazy and insular or aren’t interested. It’s because we don’t make friends or connections that way. Yeah, sometimes a shy person will get lucky and someone extremely outgoing will functionally adopt them, but for the most part? The people who aren’t connecting with you aren’t doing so because you’re giving them nothing to connect with.

Putting yourself out there doesn’t mean just showing up and waiting. It means that you’re marketing yourself. You have to be active and take a deliberate roll in your trying to connect with folks instead of hoping that your mere presence is going to be enough. Just as companies can’t just hang a shingle and hope that strangers find them through random happenstance, you have to go out and make people aware that you exist and that they should get to know you.

This means, for example, doing more than just going to a swing night and waiting for openings. The fact that people are already talking doesn’t mean that you can’t join in. Whether you join a group and quietly listen until you have something to share, step in with the classic “I couldn’t help but overhear”, or even just say “hey, I’m new here and I wanted to say ‘hi’”, you can join that conversation. Then, over the course of talking with folks, you can then ask someone to dance. That’s literally how it works. At social dances, especially ones like swing dancing, it’s expected that you’re going to ask a bunch of different people to dance, even if you barely know them. Some folks will say no, but more will say yes.

But if you don’t talk with them – before or after a dance – then they don’t know you’re looking for friends. They don’t know you want to connect or get to know them better, and they certainly won’t know you’re looking, ideally, for a date. The same applies to being introduced to other people; sometimes you’ll find a born networker who’ll just bring you over to others, but more often than not, if you want an introduction, you need to let people know that’s what you’re looking for. They can’t read your mind, after all.

Now, is it fair that you have to do so much of the work? Well, you’re asking the wrong question, because fairness doesn’t enter the equation. If you want folks to know how awesome you are as a friend or partner, then you have to be willing to show them. That means that, at least at first, you’re going to have to be the initiator, the networker and the marketer. You’re going to have to be proactive in what you’re looking for and willing to make the first bids for connection – whether this is asking someone to dance, or if you can connect on WhatsApp.

And, incidentally, sometimes, you’ll need to prime the pump. Do you want folks to invite you to their parties, events and get-togethers? Well, sometimes the best way to get that to happen is to invite folks to the ones that you throw, first. Not only do they now see that you’re interested in connecting and being friends – which they learn from your making this first move – but they also get to see you being social and charming and delightful… someone they clearly should have in their lives.

But they can’t know any of this until you show them that it exists in the first place. You’ve taken that first step. Now it’s time to take the next, and the one after that. Before you know it, though? You’ll still be taking steps… but you won’t be walking alone; you’ll have your friends and lovers walking alongside you.

Good luck.

A couple more things before I go.

First: I’ll be doing a live Q&A for my Patrons on December 29th, with Q&As open to my general audience coming in the future. If you’re interested in taking part, consider supporting the site by becoming a patron at patreon.com/DrNerdLove; patron questions will get priority in future live streams.

Second: As the we’re coming to the end of the year, I have a couple requests. First, since January is National Break Up Month, I’m putting out a call for questions about ending relationships: when you need to end it, how to end a relationship the right way, when a relationship can be fixed and how to handle break ups – either as the dumper or the dumpee. As always, submit your questions via the submission form, or send them to [email protected] with “National Break Up Month Question” in the header.

Third: Since that’s also a hell of a downer, for February – especially for Valentine’s Day – I want to hear your Relationship Wins. Tell me about ways you and your sweetie turned things around, what you’ve learned about making things work, how you two solved problems together or otherwise made each other’s lives better. Let’s share some happiness and spread hope, especially in a month when a lot of folks may feel at their lowest. Who knows, maybe you’ll see your story featured here.